Quick back history on this. At Fictionalley Park, there was a thread called "Does *Anyone* Like Peter. Several of us said that we did in fact like Peter, and defended him. Melanija disagreed with us and posted her own views. I responded, she responded, others joined in. It became a long lasting debate about Peter. I found it interesting, see what you think of it.
Disclaimer: All Text is reprodeced here with the premission of the writers. Some format has been changed to fit the site, but nothing else has been altered, not even typos. My views are only represented by what I say, not by what others say.
Melanija: I am really blown away by the fact that people are defending Peter. It makes me question the future of humanity.
Peter. Is. Scum. He is below human. Nothing anyone can say can change that.
If Peter was tortured, all he had to do was tell Voldemort one poece of information and he would have been set free. He could have gone to Dumbledore and been protected. But he spied for Voldemort for over a year. You don't do that by mistake. He made a conscious decision to betray the people who cared for him.
Voldemort would never have known about the Fidelis Charm if Peter hadn't told him. If Peter had said that the Potters had simply disappeared and that would have been the end of that. He could work for Voldemort by looking for them. Then he could be a Death Eater without dragging anyone else into it. But being a DE is still wrong.
So what if he was tortured? His body could only take so much. He would eventually die, and die with dignity. And besides, he says in PoA that he was afraid the Dark Lod would kill him. Not torture, kill. He would have been saving the lives of at least James, Lily, and Harry (no one could have anticipated his surviving teh curse). Later we find out that he would have saved twelve other lives.
And stop with the 'obliviate' 'obliterate' stuff. Why would he shout to the rest of the street that Sirius was guilty if he didn't plan on blowing up the street and faking his own death? If he had lived, Dumbledore would have contradicted this story and he would have gone to Azkaban, whether or not Sirius remembered what happened or not.
So just stop defending him, alright? So what if he was a weak, pittiable child? He betrayed his friends. He was willing to let a BABY die for his own personal gain. He doesn't deserve to be called human. The things he did were some of the worst imaginable.
Ani: Let me first say I'm not attacking you are you're opinion, just disagreeing ^^
quote: If Peter was tortured, all he had to do was tell Voldemort one poece of information and he would have been set free. He could have gone to Dumbledore and been protected. But he spied for Voldemort for over a year. You don't do that by mistake. He made a conscious decision to betray the people who cared for him.
Ok first, no every single piece of information Peter spilled could have been tortured out of him. Is eriously doubt Voldemort would ahv eonly asked him one thing. And you're right you can't spy by mistake, but you can spy for other reasons than self centerdness. *shrugs* Maybe his mom's alive still because he was a spy. I'm just saying there are reasons he could ahve done what he did other than he's scum.
Yes he could hav egone to Dumbeldore _maybe_ remeber how Crouch was though? I can see why he would have been reluctant to turn hmself im. (I'm not condonning his not turning himself in, I think tht's the worst he's done
quote: So what if he was tortured? His body could only take so much. He would eventually die, and die with dignity. And besides, he says in PoA that he was afraid the Dark Lod would kill him. Not torture, kill
Ok this was the big thing that got to me. The ENTIRE point of torture is to NOT let the person die. Beside have you any concept of what you're saying? Hold out until you die? Most people can not, no matter what their loyalty and intentions, do that. Marines are exonerated of any information the give out after a certain perriod of time! (I think 24 hours but I'd have to double check ^^) I realize the Longbottoms went insane under the cruciatus curse, but was it because the didn't telll, or beacuse the didn't know where Voldemort was and therfore couldn't tell?
Really I think it's horrible hypocritical for well fed people in a nice warm house, on a computer to say, well hey he should just let himself be tortured. I'm sorry sore poitn for me for personal reasons >_<
Yes though, he did say kill, not torture, and he does seem very afraid to die. *shrugs* you may be right. He may simply be out for his own skin, but nothing Canon has concinced me yet that that is all there is to it. Maybe I'm too naive and don't want to beleive someone could be so evil as to sell out there closest friends to a madman for money. I know it happens but I jsut can't see Peter as that type.
quote: Why would he shout to the rest of the street that Sirius was guilty if he didn't plan on blowing up the street and faking his own death?
Maybe he did blame Sirius? "Maybe it was James Lily Sirius how could you" as in how could you be so stupid as to trust me, how could you not be there secret keeper. he could blame Sirius for what had just happened. I mean it's not like Peter has shown this great ability to admitt his own mistakes. He could have had no intention of people taking what he said to be "how could you kill them!" That would be added later be assumption. Also, ir elaize Fudge said Peter went for his wand, but then we go back to the "What kind of spell did he mean to cast debate"
quote: So what if he was a weak, pittiable child?
You're right, a bad childhhood does not excuse future transgressions. It does however provide reasons for behavior. I do not, though, belive Peter was either weak or pitiable as a child. I think he was probably quite good in his own right.
quote: So just stop defending him, alright?
Nope, won't stop defending him 'till JKR writes in that he's a miserable serlf serving piece of scum. So far she's only given me the impression of a very sad willess man. Can't hate that. it'd make me a horrid hypocrit. *L* If I told you to stop condeming him would you? ^__^
Ashfea: quote: Originally posted by melanija Peter. Is. Scum. He is below human. Nothing anyone can say can change that...If Peter was tortured, all he had to do was tell Voldemort one poece of information and he would have been set free. He could have gone to Dumbledore and been protected. But he spied for Voldemort for over a year. You don't do that by mistake. He made a conscious decision to betray the people who cared for him.
As someone has already stated, we don't know the whole story. Yes, Peter has done scummy things, and deserves much suffering and torment. I'm a fanatical James fan, so you're not going to find me arguing about that. But we know nothing--zip, ziltch, nada--about the reasons why he turned to Voldemort. NOTHING. Perhaps he intended to be a double-agent spy against Voldemort, but found that he'd bitten off more than he could chew. Perhaps Voldemort had a particular hold over him. WE DON'T KNOW. YES, he's done awful scummy things, but for crying out loud! Tell Voldemort one piece of information and been set free? Voldemort doesn't set ANYBODY free. More like tell Voldemort one piece of information and been killed painfully! Or even more likely, tell Voldemort one piece of information and then been used in order to get more information! We don't know that Peter switched sides freely, and not one of us knows (or at least I sure hope not) what it's like to be in that sort of situation. Everyone has a breaking point. Until you've been tortured to the point of death, don't blame anybody who broke at that point. You don't know what it's like. (and no, of course neither do I, which is why I don't consider myself equipped to judge)
Peter has to pay for what he's done, yes. He're already started--would you like to spend ten years as a rat, terrified that your past would catch up with you?--but he's going to pay some more, I have no doubt. And I won't be shedding too many tears. But I still like pre-betrayal Peter, I still think he was a fairly good person, and I darn well think he's an interesting and complex character. Dismissing him as a lowlife scuzzball is 1) boring, 2) an insult to JKR, who invents surprisingly complex characters, and 3) an insult to James, Sirius, and Remus, who wouldn't have considered Peter a close and trusted friend if he hadn't at one point been the sort of person to merit such consideration.
Yes, Peter did something absolutely terrible and unforgiveable. But even if I can't forgive him, I can still feel pity, and I can still wonder what brought him to the point where he did such a horrible thing.
And yeah, what's with all the dissing of rats? I've met some very nice rats. It's geese that are vicious treacherous bastards. Rats aren't even cowardly, despite the popular stereotype. They can be downright arrogant about their curiosity.
Melanija: I don't think that a few of you understand the situation:
Peter. Spied. For over. A year.
He got away. Obviously, if he was tourtured (and by the way, we don't know that he was) the Dark Lord let him to so that he could get more information. So why the hell did he go back to him if he weren't in it willingly? He could have gotten help. He could have given information to the Ministry. He could have gone into hiding with whatever family Voldemort was threatening. Dumbledore wouldn't allow Crouch to send him to Azkaban-look at Snape!
But he went back. After that, no matter what anyboady thinks, he's guilty of everything I've charged him with, and who knows what else.
And I don't blame Peter for breaking *IF* he was tortured. He had to give up some information. Alright. But if he really were a decent person, that would have been the end of it.
Sorry, kids, but there is NOTHING to prove that Peter wasn't a willing convert to Voldemort. And EVERYTHING to prove that he was.
Ani: Please don't take this as any kind of attack. It's not. I'm actually interested in your opinions and I'm not trying to force you to change your mind, I'm just explaining my position. You're actually quite interesting to debate.
Editing in a comment here. It also occures to me that my view of Peter and all that might have come about is highly influenced by George Orwell's "1984" If you haven't read that, or you only read the cliff notes for it because it was an English book you've got to go read it. It gives insights into torture that I really did not want to know -_- Peter reminds me a lot of Winston in GoF.
quote: Peter. Spied. For over. A year.
Yes he did. I fully realize that Peter's information could have led to the death of other people besides the Potters (Which funnily enough I've never seen brought up by people who hate him) He could have just been passing information soly on the Potter. Don't know. Is it good to be a spy? No! Especially if you don't believe in the side your spying for ^^;; But I believe there are extenuating circumstances that can cause a person to be a spy.
For Peter I always imagined external threats to family friends etc. Everyone wonders how he could be a Gryffindor? Maybe that was his form of bravery. If someone said spy on your friends or we torture your mother to death, I'm sorry but I'm spying on my friends untill I find a way out.
Also, a real lfe example. What about German Children during the Nazi years who spied on their parents? Do you think all those children are scum and not worth being human? Heck many of them _were_ doing it for personal gain. But they have extenuating circumstances. They were taught that was the right thing to do by the Hitler Youth Group. During that time, people did sell out friends to keep their families safe. It was horrible, yes, but I don't want to condemn those people because they had to make terrible choices in a time or terror I cannot concieve of. And I hope I've not offended anyone, this is my understanding of events from talking with a close friend of mine who is German, not just biased American histories. ^^;;(Although I've read those too)
Now, could he have gone to Dumbeldore? Good question. I rarely see that addressed. I know in Iniga's "Darkness Falling" he initially didn't because he wouldn't admitt to himself it had happened, then he didn't because he couldn't admitt that to his friends, and then he didn't because he thought in some wierd way he was helping his friends.
I think it was probably mostly the sheer enormity of admitting what he'd done and he couldn't do it (Clearly) I feel like I'm poorly addressing this, but I agree a lot actually, it was very cowardly and wrong to not go to Dumbeldore before or AFTER (more so after to me) the Potter's death. Just being a pathetic coward myself when it comes to admitting to people I respect that I've just screwed up royal I can see how it would be hard.
Moving on, you say if he were a decent person he would only have given up the information he was tortured for. Ok, well I addressed being a spy for reasons that are not scummy, but also, if he were being tortured I'm sure it wasn't a one time thing. In fact Voldemort seems to think very little of Peter (Just a huch here *L*) and I suspect he'd torture Peter just to double check the information. As in "Are yous sure that's all they said at the meeting? CRUCIO" Fun stuff -_- And I've not seeing anyone succesfully lie to Voldemort yet, so Peter lying about nformation was proably not an option.
quote: Sorry, kids, but there is NOTHING to prove that Peter wasn't a willing convert to Voldemort. And EVERYTHING to prove that he was.
I think I've given reasons based on Canon why I think he was't willing (course maybe not, maybe it was all to the ML) I'd be very interested to see what canonical references, and interpretations you have. (I'm not being snotty, I know there are some. I can point to think s in PoA that are not good, but GoF is what really convinced my he's not overly willing to be doing what he's doing)
Heck I'm sure we could both make a post of it. There aren't that many Peter scenes in the books.
Melanija: I think I've already adressed everything in the above post, so I'm not typing it over again, but in regards to the German children comment: No. I'm talking about Peter and his circumstances. I'm not trying to go into every single situation and be all high and mighty about people's morality when they are in highly unusual situations. My answer will change with every new set of circumstances. But when Peter is concerned, the answer is obvious. He was wrong. The things he did... there are no excuses.
And being ashamed to go to Dumbledore. Why? If he had been kidnapped and tortured, why be ashamed? And by going back, he was admitting to himself that it happened. Coming forward would have been what showed Gryffindor courage.
I don't think he was concered about his mother. It would have come up in the Shrieking Shack. He was begging Sirius and Remus not to kill him, trying to make them understand. But he only mentioned the repercussions for himself if he didn't side with Voldemort. Doesn't that seem odd? So either a)His mother was never mentioned and he was too stupid to think of her or b)She WAS threatened but he didn't really care.
But if you were in that situation, wouldn't you explain everything to them? Peter didn't. He just begged. Because he knew that he had no excuses, nothing to explain. He only played to their former friendship, not to the reasoning to what he did. Because there was none.
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